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kacke mama, das ist ja riesenscheisse.
kann doch nicht sein. dann muss ich ja noch unter umständen 2 monate mit viagra agieren.
also zur zeit nehm ich 2 tadafils die woche. ohne gehtz im bett immernoch nicht. so langsam mach ich mir sorgen.
naja ich denke mal, ich brauche noch was geduld bist sich alles normalisiert hat ?!
und diese tropfen da oben könnten mir helfen? weil dann werd ich sie mir holen morgen !
hol <sie dir. bei mir schlagen die voll ein.
3x20 tropfen/tag
naja 15 cialis tabs hab ich noch. werd dann auch direkt nochma neue ordern... :?
was haben die tropfden dir denn genau gebracht ?
ständeralarm :mrgreen:
und die schwimmer werden wieder richtig aktiv!!
gut. dann werede ich mir dasmorgen holen.
gibtz da mehrere präparate. verschreibungspflichtig?
welches soll ich am besten holen?
hat dir der stoff auch auf die augen geschlagen? :mrgreen:
lääääsääään ;)
rezeptfrei.
:mrgreen:
danke mama. wenn du ne frau wärstwür ich dich knutschen :)
Also diese B.Roberts-Studie interessiert mich ja schon.
Wobei ich aus rein theoretischen Aspekten und auch aus eigener Erfahrung diese Interpretation ("Tamox+Clom bringt keine Vorteile gegenüber ONly) mal ganz stark anzweifle. Zumal beide Präparate über teilweise unterschiedliche Wirkmechanismen aggieren :idea:
Kann ja sen, dass das in "Seiner" einen Studie rauskam... wie sieht denn die gesamte Befundlage zu dem Thema aus?? ;)
Achja Niklas`, Ich würd mir keinen Kopf machen, dass DuDir die Achse übern Jordan gepeitscht hast. 33wochen ist lange und Tren ein Achsenkiller. Das braucht einfach seine Zeit und gut is. Alles andere tendiert Wahrscheinlichkeitstechnisch gegen Null ;)
Ja, kannst ja mal mit MAMAS-TROPFEN :mrgreen: probieren...schaden kann es nicht. Nur alleine auf diese planzliche Schiene zu bauen...ich weiss nicht.
Da würd ich lieber Clom+Tamox und evtl lowDose Ari als Hauptkompos nehmen, sofern mir der Arsch bezügl Achse auf Grundeis ginge.
Wird schon :daumen:
LEICHE
Feierleiche,
der bericht war von roberts, die studi nicht.
da stand auch drin, dass dieanwendung von tamox, die von clom unötig macht..... das ist mir persönlich aber schonein bissel sehr mutig. sehe es bisher eher anders.
ich kram das ding nochmal raus.....
es war ein bericht von anthony roberts, nicht bill.
ist halt alles auf englisch und ich versuch mal das halbwegs anschaulich darzustellen.
aussage ist:
es gibt keine studie, die eine verbesserung durch ne kombinierte einnahme von tamox und clom bestätigt.
und für die interessierten:
Post Cycle Threapy (PCT)
Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)
By: Anthony Roberts
After a cycle, we have one goal: to hold onto the gains we made during the cycle. Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, because the levels of various hormones and other substances that were circulating around your body during the cycle (huge amounts of testosterone, insulin-like growth factor, growth hormone, and lower amounts of muscle-wasting glucocorticoids) are now changing. Sadly, they are making way for lower amounts of the hormones we want for building muscle, and higher amounts of the catabolic ones. What needs to be done, as quickly as possible, is to get your body to begin production of your own natural anabolic hormones, and produce less of the catabolic ones. Unfortunately, your body has other plans.
But then, so do I…
…and I’m very confident that this protocol will allow you to recover your own natural hormonal levels quickly and lose far less of the gains you worked so hard for on the cycle. This protocol, which is typically implemented after a cycle is called “Post Cycle Therapy” or “PCT” for short.
First, I’m going to tell you what anabolic hormones are typically low when a cycle ends, and which catabolic ones are high, then I’ll tell you what drugs can change that condition as fast as possible. Is all of this necessary? No, not at all. You can skip to the end of the article and look for a little chart I made - the extent of my computer skill - which has all of the dosage recommendations and compounds involved to properly recover from your cycle. I think, however, that you’ll see some very odd recommendations if you simply skip to the end, and will find yourself reading through the whole article to find out where they came from - or maybe you’ll just try to find out what’s gotten into me?
I’m not re-inventing the wheel here, and you may have seen a piece of this information elsewhere (possibly in something I’ve written, possibly somewhere else on the internet or in a magazine), but I’m sure of two things:
You’ve never seen this PCT protocol anywhere
This is the most effective PCT you’ll ever see
First, I’ll give you a brief explanation on the body and how it works, and why there’s a lag-time after the cessation of Anabolic Steroids before the body returns to normal. Remember, during this lag-time you lose gains, so we really need to make it as short as possible. First, we need to understand a bit of what is going on in your body, what causes it to happen naturally, and what hormones are performing what function. Don’t worry, I’ll try to make it painless.
At the age of puberty, Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) is increasingly released from the Hypothalamus, in turn causing the secretion of Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Luetenizing Hormone (LH) from the pituitary, and finally the male gonads (testes) are then stimulated by those pituitary hormones (LH and FSH). (1). FSH, although generally thought to only have a role in production of sperm, actually aids the in regulation of Leydig Cell function (2), while LH directly causes the Leydig Cells in the testes to secrete androgenic hormones such as testosterone (which is causes a surge in other anabolic hormones: Insulin Like Growth Factor, Growth Hormone, etc…). Androgens do this by then targeting other tissues inside the body, either by attaching to the Androgen Receptors (AR), which are found primarily in the cytoplasm of specific cells, or by what’s known as non-receptor mediated effects. When an androgen (your own natural testosterone or an anabolic steroid you’ve injected or ingested) binds to a receptor inside the cell, it activates the transcription of specific genes. What does this mean? Don’t worry, it just means that the steroid molecule gives the cell a message to do something. In the case of testosterone, for example, one of the messages it sends to the cell is to increase nitrogen retention in your body, thus allowing you to use more of the protein you take in, and build more muscle. In the case of testosterone (or anabolic steroids in general), this transcription causes a lot of different anabolic effects to take place: an increase in IGF, a decrease in cortisol, an increase in Red Blood Cell count, and the increased protein synthesis I already told you about. This is not to say that AR binding is the only thing that causes anabolic or androgenic effects, however. Oxymetholone and Methandrostenolone (Anadrol and Dianabol) both bind very weakly to the AR yet are both highly anabolic and androgenic. The diagram below is an example of an androgen’s entry into a target cell, where it (in this case) stimulates protein synthesis, which is a major anabolic effect:
Under the control of this heightened state of androgens, you also go through androgenic development as well as anabolic development. This can be seen in puberty when males grow body hair experience voice changes, as experience genital development and growth.
Another characteristic of androgens in the body is that they are subject to what’s known as a “negative feedback loop”. Lets review one of the first things I mentioned, ok? Your Hypothalamus secretes GnRH, thus making the pituitary secrete LH & FSH, finally in turn causing the testes to stimulate the Leydig cells to produce testosterone (by conversion of cholesterol), remember? Ok, now, once testosterone is created however, it has the ability to in turn to undergo various metabolic processes that will inhibit GnRH, which in turn inhibits the secretion of LH and FSH, and that brings a halt to natural testosterone production. Once testosterone has stopped being produced, it no longer sends this negative signal, and GnRH eventually begins to do its job again. In this way, your body prevents excess hormones from being secreted and thus maintaining homeostasis (the status quo… in this case a state where you are neither gaining nor losing muscle) (1). This negative feedback loop is partially why we use anabolic steroids…we want more testosterone for anabolic purposes (or more Anavar or whatever) than our body will let us produce (not that our bodies produce Anavar, but you get the idea). When we use that injectable testosterone, it sends the message to our body to begin the negative feedback loop and discontinue producing/secreting the hormones that cause our natural testosterone production. The chart below clearly shows this process, displaying both the negative and positive feedback system(s):
So what I’m saying is that anabolic steroids increase androgen levels in the blood, bringing a halt to GnRH, making the pituitary gland (eventually) responds by reducing the release of LH; this loss of LH has the effect of shutting down testosterone, of course, which you know is produced by the Leydig cells in the testes after they are stimulated by LH. Am I being repetitive? Yes. Do you need to understand all of this in order to understand the PCT protocol I’m about to outline? Yes. Remember, the negative feedback loop is, of course, no problem while we are on a cycle. Want more testosterone (or androgens) in your body? Fill up a few more syringes!
But all good things come to an end, and most of us choose to end our cycles at some point. At this point, while there is still some androgens floating around in us, our natural production won’t begin, and even once they are out, there may be some lag time before your body figures out that it needs to start producing its own androgens again. As I said before, this lag time is severely catabolic and it’s where you lose a lot of your gains. SO what we need to do is coax the body into quickly producing its own androgens.
One of the first drugs we’ll consider for this purpose is what is typically called a SERM. Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, which means that it has the ability to act as an anti-estrogen with regard to certain genes, yet also acting as an estrogen with respect to others. That’s the “selective” part I guess. It does this by blocking gene transcription in some cases, and initiating gene transcription in others (3). Luckily for us, it has estrogenic effects on bones (meaning it increases their density), and blood lipids -meaning it lowers cholesterol-, (4)(5)as well as preventing gynocomastia by preventing estrogen gene transcription in breast tissue. However, it acts as an anti-estrogen in the pituitary, thus increasing LH and FSH, which results in an increase in testosterone. 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Nolvadex actually has quite a few applications for the steroid using athlete. First and foremost, it’s most common use is for the prevention of gynocomastia. Nolvadex does this by actually competing for the receptor site in breast tissue, and binding to it. Thus, we can safely say that the effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue (7).
Estrogen is also important for a properly functioning immune system, and not only that, but your lipid profile (both HDL and LDL) should also show marked improvement with administration of tamoxifen (34).
Nolvadex also has some important features for the steroid using athlete. In hypogonadic and infertile men given nolvadex, increases in the serum levels of LH, FSH, and most importantly, testosterone were all observed (35)It can also block a bit of estrogen in the pituitary, which is a great benefit
The increase in testosterone Nolvadex can give someone with a dysfunctional is basically that 20mgs of Nolvadex will raise your testosterone levels about 150% (6)...Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex.
Need I even add that the 150mgs of Clomid you need to get the hormonal increase experienced with 20mgs of Nolvadex is much more expensive? So lets dump the Clomid…and no, using it along with Nolvadex will provide no “synergy” that I’ve ever seen in any relevant study.
SO how much Nolvadex should you use during PCT? I favor using 20mgs.day, although to be totally honest, you can probably even get away with far less than that. Doses as low as 5mgs/day have proven to be as effective as 20mgs/day for certain areas of gonadal stimulation. (8) 20mgs/day, however, is a dose that myself and others have used with great success, and the research I’ve done in this area typically uses this milligram amount. SO lets stick with 20mgs/day for now.
So that effectively suggests Nolvadex can not be used at Mega-doses to get a mega-increase in your natural hormones. We can’t use huge doses of any Anti-Estrogen, actually, and expect huge increases in our natural hormones, actually. Arimidex (an Aromatase Inhibitor –which means it stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen-another drug used to fight breast cancer like Nolvadex) exhibits basically the same effects when .5mgs or a full 1mg is used (9) and I have even read studies where up to 10mgs/day of Arimidex is studied with no clear benefit over 1mg/day. Letrozole (another Aromatase Inhibitor) is capable of inhibiting Aromatase maximally at a mere 100mcg/day (10.). So clearly we need to add in other compounds to our PCT, because Mega-Doses of one compound will not I think it’s absurdly funny to see people recommending upwards 40-80mgs/day of Nolvadex, or a full milligram (or two!) of Arimidex, in their post-cycle or on-cycle suggestions. I’d steer very clear of listening to anyone who makes those types of recommendations…
All of this tells me that you can’t simply use mega-doses of Anti-Estrogens or SERMS to do anything more than reasonable doses. It must be, therefore, that your body can only respond with so much vigor to any one drug in those families. So lets add in another drug or two, ok? This way we can use reasonable doses of a few drugs and produce some synergy…hopefully decreasing our recovery time.
hier die studien:
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Breast Cancer Res Treat. 2005 Oct;93(3):277-87.
Treat Endocrinol. 2004;3(2):105-15. Review.
Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7
Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.m Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, Thomas CM
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60
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Kinetics of the steroidogenic response of the testis to stimulation by hCG. V. Blockade of 17-20 lyase induced by hCG is an age-dependent phenomenon inducible by pre-treatment with hCG. Forest MG, Roulier R
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Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30
Hormonal changes in tamoxifen treated men with idiopathic oligozoospermia Exp Clin Endocrinol. 1988 Dec;92(2):211-6
feierleiche, ich hab ja auch nur gefragt ob ich clomid noch länger nehmen soll.
habs doch schon 60 tage genommen. müsste ja eigtl. reichen. jetzt muss sich mein körper langsam mal von alleine normalisieren ohne medikamente. ich glaube das tut ihm gut 8-)
Hmm...ja, kenne das Propblem.Zitat:
feierleiche, ich hab ja auch nur gefragt ob ich clomid noch länger nehmen soll.
habs doch schon 60 tage genommen. müsste ja eigtl. reichen. jetzt muss sich mein körper langsam mal von alleine normalisieren ohne medikamente. ich glaube das tut ihm gut
Am besten wärst halt nicht mit Tren raus sondern TestOnly länger weitergefahren....
Ich hatte das damals bei Deca ähnlich. Monatelang Achse im Eimer :!:
Ich hatte auch Tamox für 6 oder mehr Wochen dann drangehängt...hat auch nicht viel geholfen. Ob es den Prozess etwas beschleunigt hat, wag ich sogar zu bezweifeln.
Manche biochemische bzw endogen-hormonelle Reglungsprozesse kannst schwer gezielt beeinflussen. Diese klassische "GestagenGeschichte" bei Deca,Tren, Oxy und Co könnte in die Kategorie fallen.
Man kann das theoretisch auch gut und plausibel erklären. Z.B. sind auch einfach die Rezeptoren im Hoden nachhaltig runtergeregelt bei Deca,Tren und Co. So kann bereits LH und FSH ausgeschüttet werden...aber aufgrund dieser "Desensibilisierung" (noch) nichts ausrichten und läuft ins "Leere" sozusagen. Das "Wieder-hochregulieren" braucht einfach Zeit.
Manche sehn hier dann auch ein "sinnvolles" Einsatzgebiet von HCG vor dem eigentl Absetschema...ICH NICHT!
Da hilft bei empfindlichen Personen einfach nur über Wochen mit TestOnly weiterfahren und dann evtl klassisch absetzen oder gleich mit Propi ausschleichen.
mama67, danke für den ARTIKEL. Werd bei Gelegenheit mal in Ruhe drüberlesen und drauf eingehn ;)
War auch lange auf Tren, habe danach noch 8 Wochen Probi gefahren und anschließend kurze Zeit Clom, keine probleme gehabt.
So sollte es sein :daumen:Zitat:
War auch lange auf Tren, habe danach noch 8 Wochen Probi gefahren und anschließend kurze Zeit Clom, keine probleme gehabt.
Btw bzw nur mal am Rande: Die Achsenplättung ist bei NandrolonDeca. wohl auch etwas nachhaltiger und stärker, da es im höheren Maße konvertiert..